Sustainable Fusion

  • phox
    1st Dec 2020 Member 8 Permalink

     

      The fusion system has to be my favorite mechanic in this game, however currently the fusion system, while a very cool mechanic, doesn't generate enough energy to sustain itself. 

     

      Similar to the issue in actual fusion physics, but somehow it's even harder in TPT to create a self sustaining fusion reaction, let alone impossible without indestructible materials; unless you put more energy than you create from fusion using infinite sources of pressure and heat, like PUMP or BOYL/URAN, in which case it's not self sustaining. I know TPT isn't supposed to be the most realistic game, but I don't think it makes sense that fusion is so difficult to keep going.

     

      You can use DEUT and NEUT to start fusion, but at that point you're not generating energy from fusion, just from the DEUT/NEUT reaction, and when using things like DEUT it becomes near impossible to contain the reaction without using unbreakable materials like DMND, FRME or FILT, and super destructive materials like WARP while still keeping the temperature and pressure high enough for fusion to actually happen. While the new material PTNM allows for some dollar-store low energy fusion, once again it must be heated to 500C, only to create NBLE, and a neutron or photon that tends to cool the reaction down, leaving you with burning HYGN and cold PTNM, functioning more as a broken transmutation gimmick than a usable reaction.

     

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      In real physics, this is circumvented by using magnetic fields so fusing material never actually touches the walls, and the parts that do are what create the heat necessary to generate electricity, in TPT, this isn't possible without filling at least half of the save with GPMP or another force creating element.

      This is mainly the reason why I suggested a way to implement magnetism, but there could be other ways to create sustainable fusion without requiring ridiculous amounts of energy or a magnetism system. So, this proposal is based on this article which details how fusion is achieved in tokamaks:

     

     "The most commonly used fuel sources are deuterium and tritium, which are isotopes of hydrogen with one and two extra neutrons, respectively. Combining these two nuclei at very high temperatures and pressures produces a neutron, a helium nucleus, and a lot energy that heats the surrounding plasma."


      I highlight this particular line because it proposes an alternative way to approaching sustainable fusion in TPT using some extra elements and velocity based fusion


    In the latest snapshot we have a new material, PTNM or platinum a key ingredient in this proposal; a precious metal often used in electrolysis because of it's resistance to oxidization, as opposed to types of steels or iron.

     

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      This new element could be combined with DEUT and SPRK to electroylize DEUT into two elements, OXYG and a new element which would be Deuterium Gas (DTRG). The other new proposed element, tritium, another isotope of hydrogen, could only be produced by firing a neutron at DTRG or PTNM with a TMP of 1 (this is elaborated on), which would create heat and transform DTRG into TRIT. 

      Now fusion can occur by allowing these two particles to meet at the temperatures fusion would normally occur with HYGN, or with a few special conditions:

     

    1. These two elements can fuse at low pressure if their velocities and heat are high enough when they are in range, so 2000C~ based on normal HYGN fusion, very similar to the built in proton - proton reactions.

     

     

    2. They may also fuse at low to no heat if the surrounding pressure is above 50 and if the sum/magnitude of the VX,VY or (VX+VY) of both is higher than 15.

     

     

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    What this would mean is that velocity can substitute for either heat or pressure in this reaction but not both, yet if both heat and pressure are present our TRIT+DEUT fuses into NBLE, so:

     

      If both heat AND pressure are adequate (so 2000C and 50 pressure) they fuse without need for velocity. Now, what makes this different from standard HYGN fusion is this reaction actually requires two elements that fuse together, rather than one element fusing with itself somehow, and releases just enough energy for fusion to occur again, while if simultaneously paired with the next element described below, in the right conditions, would allow for fusion with both energy gain and low fuel usage.

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     The reaction would pressurize the area around itself to 80, release two neutrons, and one fast moving NBLE with a TEMP of 5000C with the neutron's direction decided by the inverse of the two directions of the colliding particles, so  which would look like this: 

    Oil giant taking stake in nuclear fusion startup | Power Engineering

    So, the reaction(s) would be as follows:

    hopefully this makes sense I didn't pay attention in physics class

     

    If the area 

     

    TRIT[1] + DTRG[2] + ( if A=> 15) ==>

    1 NBLE[3], vel = * 2, 2 NEUT[3], vel = B / .2

     

    with the equations: 

    A = [(VX+VY)[1] + (VX+VY)[2]]

    B = [(VX,VY)[3] = (VX,VY)[1] - (VX,VY)[2]]

     

    The equations above are a sad attempt to demonstrate this sort of interaction:

     

      This would mean if you fired two of these elements at eachother from opposite directions, you would get a ball of almost motionless energy particles and one very fast moving NBLE, some neutrons optionally could be absorbed by another element suggested by moonheart08, lithium  which already has code, interesting reactions and a pull request, the only thing is code would be needed for it to account for a few new uses additional to it's current reactions. 

     

      If introduced, it would fill a few gaps that this proposal introduces, such as getting the proposed new hydrogen isotope elements to high velocities so that they may fuse. This element also while adding possibilities for batteries, paves the way for self sustained fusion reactions. 

     

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    Some new reactions would be based on real life lithium reactions;


    LITH temp > 500C + NEUT ==> 1 NBLE + 1 2800K TRIT[Reflected in the opposite direction with 8~4 velocity] + LITH TEMP LOWERS BY 200C
    Based on:


    Li-6 + neutron ==> He-4 + H-3 (tritium) + 4.8 MeV

     

    and

     

    LITH temp > 500C + PROT ==> 2 3200C PLSM with CTYPE(NBLE)[Reflected in the opposite direction with 10~4 velocity], + LITH TEMP LOWERS BY 150C

    Based on:

     

    Li-7 + proton ==> 2He-4 + 17 MeV

     

      LITH under 500C reacting with NEUT can simply increase it's already built in hydrogenation(TMP) by 1

    (The reaction causing the LITH to lose heat is simply added so that the LITH doesn't instantly burst into flames as the reaction occurs, unless the reaction is allowed to occur in a larger radius or the lith is always liquid, in which case it wouldn't need to cool off.)

     

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     Of course new isotope elements wouldn't be needed, only adding new reactions to DEUT/HYGN and adding LITH, if they would be added, some additional reactions could be:

     

    TRIT can simply be a radioactive gas similar to DEUT, fissile in a strange way with PHOT, yet without the compressability of DEUT.


    TRIT + OXYG + FIRE = GLOW
    TRIT with (LIFE > 1) + (0 > surrounding pressure) OR 1 PHOT = 2 PHOT + TRIT with LIFE subtracted by 1

    TRIT with (LIFE < 0)+ (0 > surrounding pressure) AND 1 PHOT = 2 NEUT + 3 PHOT

    (to simulate phosphorescence, one of tritium's actual uses)

    TRIT + FIRE = 2 NEUT + 1 FIRE
    TRIT + SPRK = 2 PHOT + 1 DTRG

    TRIT + ELEC = TRIT with TEMP of -273.15C 

    TRIT + PTNM + -10 > pressure = 1 TRIT with it's (VY,VX) * 3

     

    (this line in particular is important as it's based on the actual supposed case of cold fusion and suggests some changes to PTNM;

     

      could also allow for PTNM to act like palladium so, rather absorb HYGN and it's isotopes rather than flinging them, and fling them instead when it's absorption reaches a certain point to simulate electrostatic repulsion, or just create a fusion reaction when it reaches that point;

     

     if this is done it would drastically change PTNM's cold fusion mechanic. however it will allow for something less of a gimmick and more of a game mechanic, 

     

      hydrogen saturation among PTNM can spread like TMP in GEL, or LIFE in SPNG, saturation would diminish and the PTNM would release plain HYGN, or alternatively a isotope[DTRG,TRIT] if it's TMP is higher than 1 and the PTNM is heated above 300C~, suggesting that TMP is relative to compression, and can be indicated by the PTNM's already tmp-indicated glow, similar to how DEUT's glow is relative to it's compression.

     

      This wouldn't harm the fuel cell mechanic as saturation may also catalyze OXYG with the cost of TMP into WATR, allowing for isotopes to be turned into DEUT, DSTW and plain WATR and with the addition of a neutron for TRIT; also allows for HYGN to be separated from OXYG without using indestructible materials such as STOR.


    Perhaps the PTNM can store high amounts of HYGN or it's isotopes if it's temperature is extremely low?)

     


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    DTRG can simply be a radioactive gas similar to TRIT, fissile with neutrons, yet without the compressability of DEUT.

    DTRG + NEUT = 1 TRIT with TEMP of 300C

    DTRG + FIRE = 2 FIRE

    DTRG + OXYG + FIRE = DEUT
    DTRG + PTNM + 0 > pressure = 1 DTRG with it's (VY,VX) * 2 

     

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      I really hope all of this makes sense because I feel like it would fill a few gaps left by the current fusion system and add a ton of new uses for radioactivity, any suggestions are welcome.

    Edited 23 times by phox. Last: 2nd Dec 2020
  • CCl2F2
    2nd Dec 2020 Moderator 1 Permalink

    Oh god

  • Riptier1
    2nd Dec 2020 Member 2 Permalink

    @phox (View Post)

     I actually understood. I like your idea. Good luck on getting it added

  • QuanTech
    2nd Dec 2020 Member 1 Permalink
    cmon jacob1 u gotta take a look at this
  • phox
    2nd Dec 2020 Member 0 Permalink

    made it a bit more readable and added some more interactions for PTNM

    I'm aware some of this may have holes or not make the best sense, so please comment so I can fix any issues or elaborate more

    Edited 2 times by phox. Last: 3rd Dec 2020
  • CCl2F2
    3rd Dec 2020 Moderator 1 Permalink

    How long it took to write?

  • LeroyJenkinz
    30th Jul 2021 Member 1 Permalink

    @phox Since I have gotten into that insane mindset for looking for sustainable fusion, after reading you're forum post about sustainable fusion in TPT I HAVE WORKED 4 WEEKS, 6+ hours a day to bring you these videos of failures and finally.....accomplishments. Right now I am drinking to celebrate to I am tipsy but my friend I have done it and it is possible, I will send the video links of the progress and final outcome and if you come back to read this and reply I will explain in depth through here or through video if required. 

    (p.s. Literally made a profile/found my old one just to let you know, I am really excited I'm looking forward to your response)

     

     

     

    https://streamable.com/e9u6ee

    https://streamable.com/7bclre

    https://streamable.com/2somcz

     

    https://streamable.com/nr9qnh

     

    https://streamable.com/cra4os

     

    https://streamable.com/7jeew1

     

    https://streamable.com/1rbxy2

     

    https://streamable.com/1rbxy2

     

    https://streamable.com/mr2ctw 

     

    These are the videos I Uploaded to streamable that I thought at each moment was good enough to upload, Please know I have around 30+ videos of my progress through the weeks but it would not be good to post EVERY video, so these are skipped steps to show breakthroughs and the final achievement. The last 2 videos are one of a meltdown before a control z and the final is the one showing the final sustained fusion with fuel within the reactor being cooled and energy being conducted through steam, and sorry for the random talk I am always in discord with friends.

    Edited 4 times by LeroyJenkinz. Last: 30th Jul 2021
  • phox
    30th Jul 2021 Member 0 Permalink

    @LeroyJenkinz (View Post) I'm excited to see what you came up with, I tried to mess with self sustaining fusion for a while but the closest I got was this: https://powdertoy.co.uk/Browse/View.html?ID=2638486


    I think this might be my favorite design of yours https://streamable.com/7jeew1 just because of how cool it looks lol, the finished design actually reminds me a lot of the tokamak from ITER, looks like it even functions the same way which is really interesting, I can honestly tell you put a lot of work into this and it looks like it paid off so really good job, my attention span is too short to focus on something for more than a day so I'm amazed lol

    Edited once by phox. Last: 30th Jul 2021
  • Denderth
    30th Jul 2021 Moderator 1 Permalink
    This is quite an interesting topic, honestly. I have a bit of an interest in nuclear fusion atm, both in real life and in the powder toy (The latter's probably the only safe place to probably at least attempt some form of actual nuclear engineering). I think the only downside with Tokamaks being made in the powder toy is that iirc, magnetic fields is one of the things that's on the list of rejected elements, due to it apparently being a bit difficult to implement, as magnets of the realistic sort would require some form of mechanism to simulate magnetic fields. In relation to this, I do think that, Tokamak reactor-wise, the magnetic fields could be somewhat simulated by the utilisation of various layers of FRAY and GPMP, though honestly, I kind of wish copper existed so it could simulate some small form of electromagnetic field, but that would of course require the prerequisite of the aforementioned magnetic fields.

    Though, one thing I'm wondering is this; have you all already tested out trying to layer the GPMP and FRAY on top of each other with the prop tool? Current line of thinking is that if it takes half the save's space to simulate Tokamak magnetic fields, what if we tried to minimise the amount of space taken up as much as possible by layering it? (Probably would have to rather precisely figure out what temperatures to set each layer at before layering them together)
    Though of course, with layering, I think it allows for up to six particles worth of layering before collapsing into a black hole (Presumably a mechanic meant to simulate a Schwarzschild radius sort of effect?).
  • LeroyJenkinz
    2nd Aug 2021 Member 0 Permalink

    @phox (View Post)

     Wow, this is beautiful work!! this takes skill, I'm going to look at your and get the best I can from it to put into my work. I have a new design I have been working/researching on for a few days now and I am really close to a design that can work for about a min or 2 maybe more and is meant to use a lithium rechargeable battery to power itself. https://ibb.co/5L1VmYv my biggest bottleneck is my knowledge of electronics and elements in the TPT so my ability to automate as you won't happen, but you give a lot to learn and to think about with your designs and with your statement you made this thread from so I will get there.

     

    Edited 2 times by LeroyJenkinz. Last: 2nd Aug 2021