I am angry at the moderators

  • DatOneFishVustono
    24th July Member 0 Permalink

    Look, I'm not starting beef here, okay? I just wanna say that literally all suggestions we give, 80% of them are just rejected. And the rejected elements list never gets updated to let us know what was rejected and what was accepted. I do not like this type of moderation, and if I could, I'd rate this 3 stars.

    (Tip: You guys should probably listen to the community, rather than rejecting most of our feedback, thank you.)

  • jm211
    24th July Member 2 Permalink

    Let me preface this by saying, I am obviously not a mod. I have been playing since 2010, registered two or three years later, and joined the discord a little over half the year ago. So far, I have already contributed the the github repository to fix bugs, and to add a reaction that will go live along with a few user made elements. That is to say, I have played the game for a long time, but only recently have started contributing to it, which involves sometimes lengthy debates with the moderation team.

    Your suggestions were:
    1: Floppy wires
    2: 2 users simulation
    3: Friend system
    4: SPRD
    5: Talking humans.

    So let me give some feedback on the likely reasons these were rejected. First and foremost, you are not meant to recommend multiple *unrelated* things at once. What you did was essentially give them what you want to see in the game, and very little reason for why anyone else would enjoy it at all, didn't describe how it would interact with the rest of the elements in the game, any of that. 

    1: Floppy wires is a moving solid. The best you can probably do is make a rope using soap and link the ends with wifi. But making FPWR (floppy wire) would be tricky to code, serve no discernable purpose, and thus its just not worth the effort. **NOW** let me say, you may have a brilliant idea of how great and useful FPWR is, and can't believe I am missing its obvious usage. That is because myself, and as far as I know the staff team, they are not psychic. If you clearly spell out *why* elements are a good idea, *how* they can be implemented and *how* they would interact with other things, as well as *where/when* they would be used, your suggestion is more likely to be considered, and will likely get more feedback given to you. If you cant describe these things (except the *code* part of the implementation, as its understandable if you don't know), it means you havent even convinced yourself of the element. This blurb also goes for the other features.

    2: 2 User simulation can be achieved using the TPTMP script. Made and managed by a TPT staff member, it is available on the tpt script manager as the top result, "TPTMulti". See https://powdertoy.co.uk/Discussions/Thread/View.html?Thread=19400

    3: A friends system doesn't exist, but you are able to private message users on the website, or use the TPT official discord

    4: SPRD sounds like vrss (solid virus), with the sole addition that it can "infect" empty space. I'm not sure how that would work. What would that add? Why would you, or any other user, want that, and for what?

    5: Talking humans... you really didnt clarify this at all. Do you want them to just say "ouch" when they get hurt? Or are you trying to have a philosophical debate with them? Do they talk to each other, to the user, what? 

    Now, I am not trying to have beef either, or rain all over your parade. I think FPWR and SPRD *could* have the potential to be added someday if you are able to make a convincing enough argument. If you code the elements yourself, its also more likely to be added, as that removes the burden of coding from the staff, and allows them to just go and test your code as you wrote it, and judge for themselves. You don't have to code it yourself, and if you do, its still no guarantee. Powder toy has less than 200 elements, and as the game ages, new elements need more and more justification for them to be added.

    As for 80% of suggestions being rejected... most of those
    a) already exist/are on the denied list,
    b) dont have any justification given for why they should be added
    c) dont clearly explain what they want the element to do or be used for
    d) are not in the "spirit" of the game.

    For example, steel will likely never be added, as metl is steel. (molten iron+coal=molten metal). Helium won't be added, as nble is helium. (Hygn->nble->oxyg (omitting co2) when fusing, and He is the only noble gas between H and O). Oobleck is just pste/psts. So while the names may be different, element suggestions are often already in the game, but with a different name. 

    The spirit of the game is harder to figure out. Generally, adding elements or reactions *just* for the sake of realism is going to be rejected. Its impossible to add the entire periodic table, then every nuclide, then all the molecules and compounds and solutions and on and on. Reactions that link existing elements, or new elements that react with existing elements (being created by, turning into, or transmuting alongside to form another), these are more likely, as they add not only a new element, but new ways to play with old elements. That said, this should not break saves, or at least, not many. The more uses you give an element, the less likely it is to break existing stuff, and the more potential it has to be used in different kinds of saves, these all increase the chances of approval.

    Edited once by jm211. Last: 24th July
  • DatOneFishVustono
    24th July Member 0 Permalink

    Well, first, if we code the elements ourselves, then moderators are useless, as we will be posting updates as modifications. Second, the rejected elements list WAS NOT UPDATED, now, again, keep in mind you said that most of rejected elements are in the list, to check it for yourself: https://powdertoy.co.uk/Wiki/W/Previously_requested_elements.html.

    Third, what DO YOU EVEN MEAN BY SPIRIT, THIS IS A SANDBOX GAME, IT'S LITERALLY PHYSICAL EXPERIMENTS IN A GAME.

    Fourth, THE ELEMENTS SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES, THEY EXIST IRL.

    Fifth, there is no justification, this is community feedback, without a community, the game is nothing.

    Sixth, SPRD is literally mold, and it's for players to learn more about life in the simulation

    Talking humans are literal humans that talk to each other and express their feelings, and some thoughts turn into actions

    Seventh, a friend list would perfectly organize friends you talk to, adding users as a friend is better in that case.

    The multiplayer simulation should be nicer as a feature rather than a script to inject.

    Eighth, FPWR is simpler, it's true I don't know how to code, but it should be easy as tutorials have been posted.

    Thank you

  • jm211
    24th July Member 0 Permalink

    To address your first point, moderators are not responsible for the development of the game, developers are. Moderators reject suggestions that don't comply with the rules put out for suggestions. Moderators also keep the forum and game safe for everyone to have fun in. They are not paid, nor did you pay for this game. There are other open source sandbox powder games you can go play. Most moderators are also developers, but there are a few who are only mods, or only devs. Even if you do code the element yourself, it is still subject to moderator approval (although this is generally handled by devs who are also mods). You can't just want something and expect someone else to put in all the work if you dont even put in the effort to comply with the rules they set out or to convince them.

    Second, I said most of the rejected elements were already exist OR are on the list. Talking humans is stkm-related ideas/sound, fpwr is moving solids. So both of your rejected elements are on the list. 

    Third and fourth, as i stated, this is a game. I went to college for 4 years to get a degree in nuclear engineering, and I am now working on a PhD. TPT is by far my favorite game, yet deuterium oxide (deut) doesnt slow neutrons, but explodes (like deuterium would). Changing this would be more realistic, but less fun. To be clear **TPT does not- nor does it intend to or pretend to- mimic real life. There are softwares that have real elements, molecules, compounds, and reactions, all reacting in 3d. They are not fun, and the more accurate ones cost hundreds of dollars to buy, and tens to hundreds of thousands to develop, but some free ones exist. If you are looking for that, TPT is not for you. This is a game, and adding elements for the sole sake of realism would later turn into removing or changing existing elements as they are unrealistic. Thats just lame.**

    Fifth, I gave you some justification. If they added every element everyone wanted, there would be 28 different kinds of oobleck, tens of different stick creatures, and hundreds of different electronic elements. Oh whats that, you made a computer save? -1, I made a faster computer with one element, i just wrote some code and got it in the game. **Without a community, the game is nothing? TPT is a single player game. You can do tons of stuff without using the forum or ever going into the save browser. You also said, "there is no justification". You just jotted down 5 things all at once (which it says NOT to do), one is a moving solid, one is stkm-ideas/sound (which are rejected). So yes, both of your element suggestions ARE on the list.

    Sixth, you likened virs, not mold. Mold cannot infect the middle of a chunk of metl like vrss can. Mold also does not grow on empty space. Again, if you actually *explain* your elements better, and don't write just a sentence or two per suggestion, you may get the mods to write more than a sentence or two back. If you dont put in effort, why should they, when you are the one who wants them to write code, but cant even be bothered to explain why. And if you dont explain, and they do add it, it will probably be different from what you had in mind because you didnt make it clear what you wanted, so they filled in the blanks with their own thinking. Talking humans is, imo, just a really bad idea that adds nothing to the game, would be near impossible to code, and if coded, would make the game run at a snails pace. Just go talk to chatGPT or join the discord or something or watch youtube if you want to see random people talking.

    Seventh, you know what else is perfect to organize the people you talk to? The list of private conversations, which shows your conversations with the people you talk to. The game is not meant to be a place to just chat with people (although you can with the multiplayer script), but there is a forum, private messaging, and a discord, ALL for connecting the community. Also, multiplayer being built into the game would mean all users could look at a general chat that wouldnt be able to be moderated in real time, so someone could come say very hateful things and have it pop up in the corner of every tpt users screen. Its just a bad idea. The script allows people to opt in, make different rooms, etc. So even if implemented in the base game, it would be off by default, and probably more limiting.

    Eighth, no. To be clear, FPWR would have to not be a solid, and thus would need to have its ends anchored. The code could come from soap, but soap has variable lengths between its actual pixels, so sprk transmission would need to be done based on length and such. Still, it absolutely could be coded. I could also code "glacier freeze gatorade" pretty easily too, but that doesnt mean it would be a good idea. We have so many different wires, and theres no real good reason you have given for FPWR for why we should not only add another, but have it make ropes/chains like soap does.

    You are welcome :)

    *Edit, to be clear, the reason the rejected elements list was not updated after your two elements were rejected is because they were already on the list (fell into categories that have already been rejected)

    Edited 2 times by jm211. Last: 24th July
  • Sylvi
    24th July Moderator 0 Permalink
    Closing this thread. There's enough explanation on why we reject so many element suggestions, but to summarize:

    1. Read this thread carefully: https://powdertoy.co.uk/Discussions/Thread/View.html?Thread=18901

    2. The Powder Toy is a game developed and operated by volunteers. We are not paid and you do not pay for the game. While we appreciate the community and their feedback, the capacity to develop is limited to the number of people willing dedicate their own time to design and code these suggestions.

    3. Don't suggest we should open up donations or start charging money to fix #2. We've made clear that we don't want to deal with the process of accepting and distributing funds. The Powder Toy is an international group of volunteers, taxation and laws would be a complex mess to untangle. There's also no fair system to evenly distribute funds based on any criteria.

    4. The Powder Toy in open source under GPLv3, if you feel a suggestion should be added then you have the opportunity to contribute to the code and show your suggestion is possible to implement. Remember- someone has to code these things, they don't magically appear out of thin air.

    5. Next time reach out directly to staff rather than making a big fuss in public. This is nothing new and why so many people have pointed out these things to you so many times. The only thing this does is shows your lack the understanding, perspective, and empathy for us who have tirelessly volunteered in supporting this game for over a decade.
    Edited once by Sylvi. Last: 24th July
Locked by Sylvi: Explaination given.